Thujone in absinthe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thujone

Thujone is most famous for being a chemical in the drink absinthe and some modern producers list their supposed thujone levels on the bottle. At one time it was estimated absinthe contained up to 260–350 mg/L thujone,[8] but this has been shown false through testing. A 2005 study recreated three 1899 high-wormwood recipes and tested them with gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS). The highest contained 4.3 mg/L thujone. A 1930s Pernod Tarragona was also tested and contained 1.8 mg/L thujone.[9] These results match earlier findings showing a vintage 1900s bottle contained 6 mg/L.[10] GC-MS testing is important in this capacity, because gas chromatography alone may record an inaccurately high reading of thujone because of other chemicals present that interfere and add to the apparent measured amount.[11] Through these tests it has become evident that authentic absinthe contains very little thujone. Anyone binging on absinthe would die of alcohol poisoning long before the thujone would cause any life-threatening effects.[12]

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Funny, same exact 'comment' was put up on Jeffrey Morgenthaler's website when he wrote about absinthe.

http://www.jeffreymorgenthaler.com/2008/the-great-american-distillers-festival-qa-on-northwest-absinthe/#comments

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"Funny, same exact 'comment' was put up on Jeffrey Morgenthaler's website when he wrote about absinthe"

Spooky!! I wonder why? Would anyone care to hazard a guess?

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Nice comment Dan, I hope one day all the czech absinth drinkers will come to their senses, and people will be aware of the truth about absinthe, which is "it's good, always has, it's not dangerous, never has, it's not supposed to be fired up, never has".
I don't know if we'll get Trillium in France, but I'm looking forward to it. It seems to me like the distillery is trying to do a high quality absinthe, hope they achieve that.

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"Nice comment Dan"

More of a copy and paste.

As regards the testing of pre-ban absinthe, which the "Wikipedia" article claims proves Dr Arnold wrong, thujone doesn't degrade over 100 or so years, then?

Ask yourself this: do the authors of these notorious "testing reports" have anything to gain by claiming that thujone levels in the old stuff were the same as Lucid Absinthe for example?

Lucid Absinthe publicity claims: "The resulting amount of thujone in Lucid is also comparable to many pre-ban absinthes. Lucid is completely authentic in every detail"

That's OK then...is it?

Q: Who sponsored the tests and put their name to the report? A: The guy that makes Lucid Absinthe and his business partner.

Dr Arnold wrote in the Boston Herald:

"The manufacturers of “new absinthe” claim that they are in compliance with the European Commission ruling that no foodstuff should contain more than 9 ppm thujone. Perhaps to raise the titillation for the current product, and to increase sales, they now claim that the “old absinthe” also had very little thujone in it! Supposedly the current drink has very little of several other terpenoids that were part of “old absinthe” because the current producers have missed the importance of (or intentionally avoided) “steam distillation” which was key to the manufacture of “old absinthe.” Steam distillation greatly affects the composition of the batchwise distillate. Any analogy to fractional distillation (as in whisky) is totally inappropriate with regard to 19th century absinthe manufacture"

The reason for the report's existence is this:

According to the FDA, alcoholic beverages must be thujone-free pursuant to 21 CFR 172.510.

It is used to hoodwink the media and regulators.

These "manufacturers of “new absinthe” - as Arnold calls them - are concerned that their FDA compliant products might be labeled as weak copies of the Belle Epoque original. This is the reason for Dan's "comment"

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I just about to crack open my second bottle of Trillium. I've been terribly impressed with the quality and overall flavor of the stuff. One more reason I'm glad I;'m living in Portland. :)

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Centzon-Totochtin:

You may be right about Dan's comment (I don't know him), however your statements about everything else seem very much exagerated. I happen to know personnaly a lot of the people involved in making, distributing and selling modern absinthe. I know the people behind the most famous websites "feeverte.net", "heureverte.com", "alandia.de". I've met the distillers at the Matter distillery... but most importantly I have tasted most of the contemporary absinthes, and also a few historical ones (Pernod Fils from 1914, Jules Pernod, Edouard Pernod...). I have also tasted a few czech absinths, and also a few "quality modern absinthes" that had too much thujone and could therefore not be sold (I won't name the brands or distilleries for obvious reasons).
I don't claim to be a scientific guy myself, but I know how to taste absinthe, I know what it should taste like, and I know that modern brands like the Jade Liqueurs are the closest thing to the original pre-ban absinthes, and that czech stuff which is "supposed to have tons of thujone" not only don't taste good at all in my personal opinion, but more importantly taste nothing like pre-ban absinthes.
Remember, besides the whole "makes you crazy" thing, absinthe used to be cheaper than wine, and way more popular. Do you think it would have been so popular if it tasted like the crap sold in eastern european countries ?

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"I know the people behind the most famous websites "feeverte.net", "heureverte.com", "alandia.de". I've met the distillers at the Matter distillery..."

Congratulations.

Do you Marie-Claude Delahaye?

"Tant que l'on aura pas stocké une absinthe un siècle pour vérifier, on ne saura pas si la thuyone reste stable dans l'absinthe ou non" Marie-Claude Delahaye du Musée de l'absinthe d'Auvers sur Oise

Can you translate that for us please?

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Yes I can. :)
It basically says that until we can store an absinthe for one century, we will not know if thujone is stable or not. Which I guess is true.

Marie-Claude Delahaye is very respected for the work she has done on absinthe history, collectibles (spoons, glasses, etc.). But her views on the actual drink were always debatable... I mean, I think I read somewhere she finds the absinthe "François Guy" to be one of the best and most faithful modern absinthes... I'm sorry but if you've actually tasted François Guy, it's hard to believe (unless she is also a conspirator/commercial/advertiser for the brands she likes...?).

I am not denying that the science behind thujone degradation is still a bit unclear. However it has been proven that even the high amounts of thujone said to have been present in pre-ban absinthes, or said to be present in czech drinks, have close to none effect compared to the alcohol.

And what is most important for me (also considering we are on a "food blog") is simply the taste, the richness, the subtlety of good modern absinthes and pre-ban absinthes compared to czech absinths... If you don't agree that Jades (anyone) or Verte de Fougerolles or La Coquette or La Belle Amie (I could go on...) are so much better to czech absinths, we could always claim the "all the tastes are in nature" formula... but frankly I would think you are a fool.

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"I am not denying that the science behind thujone degradation is still a bit unclear"

No it is not. We already know the degradation products produced by thujone as it degrades thanks to Frölich and Shibamoto.

"a few "quality modern absinthes" that had too much thujone"

Which do you mean - The "DuVallon Mistake"? What was the thujone level of these "quality" products?

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Ok, now you've lost me... because here is a quote from the article "Stability of pulegone and thujone in ethanolic solution" by Frölich and Shibamoto:

“No change in the thujone concentrations was noticed during the storage experiments in 100% ethanol and 30% ethanol at either pH
2.5 or pH 6.5 (Ia-IIId). At pH 11.5 a very rapid epimerization of α-thujone to the 5 times less toxic β-thujone (Rice and Wilson, 1976) took
place as reported by Hach et al. (1971) and reached an equilibrium of about 1:2 α-thujone to β-thujone after about 20 h (Figure 8). A
comparison of the reaction rates at 20 "C in sunlight and in the dark showed that the reaction was independent of the influence of light.
At the different temperatures (100, 20, and 0 "C), nearly no difference in reaction rate was observed.”
What we find in this experiment is the degradation of thujone can be effected via a sufficient pressure of photoirradiation with 310nm UV
light. Under that pressure, thujone undergoes decorbonylation to 5-methylene-6-methyl-hept-2-ene. This compound is of interest
where an assay of degradation is concerned.

However, note that no degradation was observed in the absence of sufficient photoirradiation pressure, despite exposure to sunlight,
wide differences in pH, and temperature ranges from 0-100ºC. If anything, there is a tendency for thujone to epimerize to a ratio of 2:1 β
to α, but it appears to be resistant to degradation even in extreme conditions.

So basically the people you are quoting as having proven that "it degrades" (so you say), are actually people who have proven the opposite. You would have to live a bottle into strong UV light for thujone to degrade...

And, no it wasn't the "Duvallon Mistake", I've heard of it but haven't actually tasted it. I'd rather not tell you what absinthes they were, because I don't really know the legality of it... But one of them had 40mg/l of thujone, and the other one, I think around 60. (the last one (a blanche) actually tasted quite good).

I have also tasted crapsinthes from czech that said to have 75 and 100 mg/l... and they tasted bad, and gave me no other "effects" than any absinthe.

I'm beginning to think that you are actually working for some of those absinthes... (Century perhaps...?), because by doing a little research I realized that you do the very same thing you accuse Dan of doing... spreading your own truth (based on Frölich and Shibamoto who proved the opposite of what you are claiming)... I don't really get why one would do that, I mean people will always buy crapsinthes to get wasted, so let the people who actually enjoy the drink as a fine and complex one, drink what they find more interesting (thujone or not thujone... who cares...?)

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Read what I said again please:

"We already know the degradation products produced by thujone as it degrades thanks to Frölich and Shibamoto"

Under variable light and temperature conditions, pH values, and ethanol concentrations, the degradation products formed from the above chemicals were:

(E)- and (2)-isopulegone,
the stereoisomer8-hydroxy-p-menthones,8-hy-dro~y-A*(~)-p-menthen-3-0ne,
the stereoisomer3-methyl-7-methylenebicyclo[4.2.0]octan-l-ols,
and (E)- and (2)-5-methylene-6-methylhept-2-ene.”

The degradation products are listed by this paper from 1990. It is obvious that any serious Government scientist would test for the presence of these named elements in pre-ban absinthe. Nathan Maister and Breaux didn't do that, did they? They just tested old bottles of absinthe (that they provided) for thujone and then made a press release. They also paid for the press release I believe.

Note:

“Thujone is fairly volatile (BP 84 °C), and this small aliphatic ketone can be assumed to be rather reactive. We prepared a fresh 100-ppm standard of α-thujone (Aldrich 89231; 1058112 24706082) in a 50% ethanol/water solution to quantify levels of thujone in wormwood samples. The standard was stored in several tightly sealed glass vials to be used at a later date. After four months, these standards were found to contain less than 10 ppm thujone when compared with a freshly prepared solution”

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I guess we will never agree, for whatever reason (maybe if we ever meet it would be easier to hear eachother's points rather than commenting on a blog).

But again I have to point out... thujone or not thujone, when it comes to taste, what Breaux does is the richest, more complex and closer to pre-ban absinthe today.
And if you ever have a dinner one day with Breaux and Nathan-Maister you will see how passionate they are about gastronomy and drinks (not only absinthes, wines, sherrys, liqueurs...). Maybe they are only showing "a part of the truth" to their advantage (although what would be David Nathan-Maister's point of doing that...?), but when it comes to the passion and care and quality of the product, there is no doubt that Jade Absinthes are the best.

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"Maybe they are only showing "a part of the truth" to their advantage"

That's something of an understatement! But I am glad to see that you recognise this.

Jade is closest to Breaux's *idea* of what pre-ban tastes like based upon the sampling of a small number of vintage brands that have lost their original flavour profile. It has also most likely been changed to suit the modern palate - look at his other brand Lucid for example.

Of course the original Jade, which was made in Bangkok, did have high thujone levels according to what he and his partner said at the time. Then, when La Fee started producing again in France, the Bangkok project was dropped and Breaux's story suddenly changed.

Absinthe was never truly a drink for the elite, it was a drink for the masses. This idea of quaint artisanal distilleries is a 21st Century invention which plays on only a tiny part of the Belle Epoque phenomenon. It was invented to position absinthe as a elite drink like cognac etc.

The real bottom line is that if you don't like the subtle bitterness of wormwood and you are not after the effects...don't drink absinthe, drink anise flavoured liquor.

"I could give a shit less about thujone, but if I can expect no "absinthe effect"( I refuse to consider it "secondary"), then I'll be god-damned if I am going to spend $100 for a bottle of booze unless it's damned fine single malt scotch. When I want an anise flavoured liquer, I'll buy a pastis for $30. I don't care if the effect comes from thujones or Tom Jones, or a combination of other herbs, but that's why I pay exorbitant shipping rates"

Who said that? Answer Gwydion Stone of The Wormwood Society. So he buys it for the effects...or rather that is what he used to say before the US market opened up. Like many others he has changed his tune recently.

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"Jade is closest to Breaux's *idea* of what pre-ban tastes like based upon the sampling of a small number of vintage brands."

Not his idea only. I am glad to say I have tasted pre-ban absinthes, and if it is clear that the taste has probably evolved during time, it is nonetheless also clear that Absinthe never tasted as "only another anise flavored drink with effects". And Breaux's creations come the closest to what it is to drink pre-ban.

"It has also most likely been changed to suit the modern palate - look at his other brand Lucid for example."

I know he created Lucid, but you are right he created it for a specific market, and with specific legislation... I don't consider Lucid to be of the quality of the Jades.

"Absinthe was never truly a drink for the elite, it was a drink for the masses."

I can't agree more. A glass of absinthe was cheaper than a glass of wine. This drink was for everyone, hence the absurdity in thinking that it could have tasted so bad as the czech absinthes taste nowadays... Everyone was drinking absinthe, even women.

"The real bottom line is that if you don't like the subtle bitterness of wormwood and you are not after the effects...don't drink absinthe, drink anise flavored liquor."

I LOVE the subtle bitterness of wormwood. Such as you can taste in the "Blanchette" or a "Libertine Amer" or "Duplais" (or even stronger in the absinthe called "Wormwood" or the one called "Roquette 1797").
And I DON'T like anise or licorice ! I don't like pastis or ouzo...
So don't tell me absinthe is there just for the effects, because a good absinthe doesn't taste like a pastis (of course there are La Fee, or François Guy... but I don't consider them to be good absinthes...).

I don't know about Gwydion Stone's statements. People will always want to get wasted or high... good for them.
But putting absinthe in the "getting wasted or high" category is both being adolescent and doing the exact same thing that got it banned in the first place (morality leagues, wine lobbyists...).

And trust me, you don't have to ruin yourself to drink good absinthes. Ok Jades are expensive. But get a Verte de Fougerolles or a Libertine Amer, it will be good, and if you do a tasting with any pastis (commercial or artisanal) it will taste nothing like it.

I'm curious, I saw you mention "Century Absinthe" in another blog, but what in your opinion are the "real" absinthes today that TASTE good and (if you really want...) give you "effects"...?
I have tasted only crap coming from Czech, but apparently the "Toulouse Lautrec" is not that bad... but maybe you can point me in other directions, after all I'm willing to taste everything before making a judgment. I am an absinthe enthusiast before being a thujone debater ;)

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With all this debate about thujone, I'd say eat some pork chops with sage and add some bitters to it if that's what you are looking for.
I've been under the impression that the boiling point is rather high and that most of it remains in the pot.
We've tried steam jacket distillation through a fractionating column and without the column and I prefer open flame/alembic distillation for the sake of the flavor profile. We ran two batches through a GS/MS using an assay based on the lab synopses of the TTB with an internal standard using 5 passes, each with and without menthol as they proscribed. The thujone content never exceeded 5ppm although we varied the amount of artemesium absethium.

In all, I just hope to make an honest spirit that tastes good and is authentic.

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With all this debate about thujone, I'd say eat some pork chops with sage and add some bitters to it if that's what you are looking for.
I've been under the impression that the boiling point is rather high and that most of it remains in the pot.
We've tried steam jacket distillation through a fractionating column and without the column and I prefer open flame/alembic distillation for the sake of the flavor profile. We ran two batches through a GS/MS using an assay based on the lab synopses of the TTB with an internal standard using 5 passes, each with and without menthol as they proscribed. The thujone content never exceeded 5ppm although we varied the amount of artemesium absethium.

In all, I just hope to make an honest spirit that tastes good and is authentic.

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"In all, I just hope to make an honest spirit that tastes good and is authentic."

In my opinion that's the most important !
I hope I will be able to taste Trillium in France.

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